Automated Transcript
Sam:
[0:02]
| Yeah let's see this i keep setting this to silent and it keeps coming back, yeah that's the ring camera saying it was sensing motion somewhere you're just gonna put it on do not disturb well it wasn't a doorbell it was just a camera we don't have a ring doorbell we have multiple ring cameras so.
|
Ivan:
[0:26]
| You don't have a doorbell.
|
Sam:
[0:27]
| No well Well, we have a doorbell, but it's been broken for 10 years.
|
Ivan:
[0:31]
| Oh, you bought the ring cameras?
|
Sam:
[0:33]
| So people push it.
|
Ivan:
[0:34]
| What happened to you?
|
Sam:
[0:35]
| People push it and it does nothing. But we bought the cameras.
|
Ivan:
[0:40]
| It makes sense.
|
Sam:
[0:41]
| We've got one in the driveway, one pointing at the porch, and one pointing at the backyard.
|
Ivan:
[0:48]
| Okay, and the cameras are because?
|
Sam:
[0:51]
| Well, we got the cameras. Yes, we got the cameras after the laptop was robbed from Brandy's car.
|
Ivan:
[0:57]
| Okay.
|
Sam:
[0:58]
| So we have one pointed at the driveway.
|
Ivan:
[1:00]
| But if you had the doorbell, it's also a camera.
|
Sam:
[1:04]
| Well, it is also a camera, but it's a doorbell too. And we have a broken doorbell.
|
Ivan:
[1:12]
| Okay, I've heard enough. Really?
|
Sam:
[1:22]
| Are you sure? Are you sure? Enough, you say?
|
Ivan:
[1:27]
| Yeah.
|
Sam:
[1:31]
| I'm just going to make sure the thingy is thingied. There we go. Okay, here we go. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. welcome to curmudgeon's corner for saturday may 24th 2025 it's just after 2 15 utc as we're starting to record i am sam mentor yvonne bow is with us again hello yvonne how you know we went through once like you know whether that was a stereotypical thing that you should avoid i don't No.
|
Ivan:
[2:25]
| You know what?
|
Sam:
[2:26]
| You discovered, when you looked it up, you said you found out that that was a greeting for one particular grouping of Native Americans. But it is nevertheless sort of a stereotypical thing. non-native.
|
Ivan:
[2:42]
| I could also use aloha. I mean, like, okay.
|
Sam:
[2:44]
| What if I say hola?
|
Ivan:
[2:46]
| Hola. I mean, what the hell? It's not stereotypical. It's the language. I mean, I don't know.
|
Sam:
[2:51]
| Yeah, but you could say that belongs to your culture rather than appropriating somebody else's.
|
Ivan:
[2:57]
| I'm speaking in English. I wasn't even born in a place where they spoke English. What the fuck? I'm appropriating what the hell I'm talking to right now.
|
Sam:
[3:03]
| Well, that's what I'm... Well, yeah. So you need to stop. You need to do this podcast in Spanish. I'll speak in English, you speak in Spanish, we'll do our podcast.
|
Ivan:
[3:14]
| That'll be an interesting podcast. Si yo hablo solamente en español, y Sam trata de responder en inglés.
|
Sam:
[3:22]
| Exactly.
|
Ivan:
[3:23]
| Sería muy interesante. Bueno, hoy, the largest corner va a ser muy complicado y difícil para todos los que nos están escuchando.
|
Sam:
[3:32]
| Something like that. Anyway, I could wear one of those automatic translation glasses things.
|
Ivan:
[3:37]
| They do have those things. Listen, I've seen some of these.
|
Sam:
[3:40]
| Now, just to be clear, I understand just barely enough. So if you're saying simple things like you just said, I can at least get the gist of it.
|
Ivan:
[3:52]
| Yeah.
|
Sam:
[3:53]
| Even if I don't get the specifics. Because, you know, romance language, similar roots, blah, blah.
|
Ivan:
[3:57]
| Blah. No, no, no. I get that.
|
Sam:
[3:58]
| And I took a couple years of it in high school, which was a long time ago.
|
Ivan:
[4:02]
| You actually, at some point, spoke Portuguese, which you forgot.
|
Sam:
[4:06]
| I did. But I was like three, four years old and forgot it all. So, you know, again, also with that, I can sort of maybe get the gist of things, but not further.
|
Ivan:
[4:19]
| Oi! Como vai? Tudo bem?
|
Sam:
[4:21]
| Yes. It is good.
|
Ivan:
[4:23]
| I just said the basic symbols. Hi, how you doing?
|
Sam:
[4:26]
| Yes. Yes.
|
Ivan:
[4:27]
| Everything good?
|
Sam:
[4:28]
| Yes. Yes. yeah okay i'm not i'm not gonna try anyway we're we do not have a third person this time around so it's just us we're gonna go back to our normal format and do a but thoughts listening again.
|
Ivan:
[4:45]
| Listens again this week thank you for being on the show last week it.
|
Sam:
[4:49]
| Was yeah it was a lot of fun and it was a lot of fun i will say for the first time since and in weeks and weeks and weeks the tiktok clips got hundreds of views like the last kid really yeah the last month or so like the tiktoks have been getting like single digit zero.
|
Ivan:
[5:07]
| Yeah i saw that.
|
Sam:
[5:09]
| You know but but the the the one the clips from last week got hundreds and we got some mega folks commenting on them telling us how we're stupid you know is all the good stuff and some non-mega folks also agreeing with us but you know it comes yeah but i can't a number of.
|
Ivan:
[5:28]
| Them had a lot of likes i mean i saw they had like you know i.
|
Sam:
[5:32]
| Saw one.
|
Ivan:
[5:33]
| Clip when i went in that had like 50 60 likes something.
|
Sam:
[5:36]
| Like that yeah i.
|
Ivan:
[5:37]
| Mean yeah you know it's like.
|
Sam:
[5:38]
| And you know and i i can't i have not discerned any sort of pattern for which weeks we get lots of views on the tiktok clips and which weeks we get almost none like it seems almost random to me. I haven't been able to discern a pattern. And yeah, whatever. You know, but anyway.
|
Ivan:
[6:01]
| Last week, Sam was complaining about my audio quality. Oh, yes.
|
Sam:
[6:05]
| I was supposed to make you check before, but you'd already checked.
|
Ivan:
[6:09]
| I did check. Okay. I'm not sure what happened last week. Because right as we started recording, Sam said, and we noticed this message that says, new audio track started recording. But it's like right after we started recording.
|
Sam:
[6:29]
| Like seconds, like you had not even said anything yet.
|
Ivan:
[6:32]
| Right. So it was like, what the, what the hell? What, what do you mean new audio track recording? We just, we just got started. That didn't make sense. But, but look over the last.
|
Sam:
[6:45]
| Let me say one thing. I did actually notice that, oh, Ivan's audio doesn't sound quite right. Maybe he's a little too far from the mic or something. I didn't think it had disconnected and gone to your earbuds. That should have come to my head. because that's what I don't know if.
|
Ivan:
[6:58]
| It went to the earbuds did it go to.
|
Sam:
[7:00]
| Or the built-in studio right or the studio mic on the computer but in any case it went to something other than our usual mic and but I didn't want to interrupt I didn't want to be like hey stop everything let's fix the audio I so I just let it go whatever but but.
|
Ivan:
[7:17]
| The one thing is that.
|
Sam:
[7:17]
| Most people wouldn't care our notice?
|
Ivan:
[7:20]
| You know, I had noticed very, well, it become very noticeable since December that I got new, I got these new wifi pods for the house. And there had been a lot of problems since I got those pods.
|
Sam:
[7:37]
| Is this going to be your butt first?
|
Ivan:
[7:39]
| Yes.
|
Sam:
[7:40]
| Go for it.
|
Ivan:
[7:40]
| Including a defective one. Okay.
|
Sam:
[7:42]
| All right.
|
Ivan:
[7:43]
| That I had to get, that they determined came in defective and they had to replace. Okay. And so they sent me this new pod, still having issues. At one point after the new pod and I moved some, it got better. But there was one thing that I kept noticing on my desktop here, which I have most of the stuff that I have here on the desk, I have directly connected to with cables. Okay. I'm not even on the Wi-Fi. Okay.
|
Sam:
[8:15]
| Yeah, meanwhile here, like, I think there's one device that might be connected directly with a cord, and maybe not even at this point. Like, we just do 100% Wi-Fi at this point. And I know we can get a little faster and a little better performance with a wire, but it's good enough so we don't bother.
|
Ivan:
[8:34]
| It's not just a little faster, okay? Look, the difference here, even like right here, is almost double the speed, okay? okay well what i mean that i can that i can test and the consistency okay of the speed no i i.
|
Sam:
[8:50]
| Get that and also you i mean you your home internet is five times the speed i have anyway but.
|
Ivan:
[8:56]
| Like i.
|
Sam:
[8:56]
| I haven't even investigated options for upgrading because i have not been bothered by the speed we have so i'm like.
|
Ivan:
[9:06]
| Whatever so the the one thing is that i'm like but i kept noticing that and and even when we were recording on the podcast it was every once in a while it broke up for a second and and while doing other stuff every so often a breakup and i'm like what the hell is this breakup about what is going on, Well, one thing happened where all of a sudden I was home and I'd gotten in from a business trip and I needed to connect to do some stuff. And all of a sudden there was nothing. There's nothing. OK, there's no Internet at all in the house. And I'm like, what the hell is going on? I spent 45 minutes troubleshooting with with a provider and I'm looking through the boat. I'm looking through everything. is one of the things I noticed is that I went to the main optical, what the hell is it? An O-N-T, optical network.
|
Sam:
[10:04]
| The thing that comes into the house from the optical.
|
Ivan:
[10:06]
| Right, that gets the fiber cable there. And I saw that, well, usually there's Ethernet ports there. And I have like the Wi-Fi is connected to one of the Ethernet ports there. And I see no Ethernet lights on. And I'm like, but huh, why are there no Ethernet? why are all the lights off? That makes no sense. And I'm like, I tell the guy on the phone, well, let me get okay, so I have I took one of the laptops and I do have an adapter, a USB-C adapter to be able to connect with a wire to Ethernet as well that I carry. Okay, so I have that little thing. So I went, I'm like, well, let me check to see if I can plug in the laptop into one of the Ethernet ports and the Ports light up, and there's internet. And so I plugged in, and boom, it lights up. And so I go, and I'm like, well, shit, it's not. Okay, there's service. It's not on your end. Let me go check what the hell is going on. So I go and I'm like, well, let me try this cable that is from the wall because I have this ether. I have like ethernet that's routed in the house and it goes to a jack that's behind the wall here. And I'm like, let me let me change this cable. And I changed the cable and we got internet again. And I'm like, what the hell? The cable died.
|
Sam:
[11:31]
| Right. So I guess it does happen eventually sometimes, but you'd think it has to go through some sort of trauma. Like a cable just sitting there should, I mean, I guess eventually they would deteriorate, but I think it would be a long, long time.
|
Ivan:
[11:44]
| Well, I'm guessing all of these cables have to be over a decade old. Okay.
|
Sam:
[11:49]
| All right. Yeah, but still, it's a wire. I know. There are houses that still have original electricity from the 1800s working.
|
Ivan:
[11:57]
| I'm guessing that these cables, look, I had a lot of older cables.
|
Sam:
[12:02]
| Yeah.
|
Ivan:
[12:02]
| These cables had been twisted, turned. I mean, even the clips were broken at some point. I'm guessing that some of that use over the years, that cable must have had some trauma that must have happened from the use, okay, over the years. And, you know, I didn't realize that I had done some minor damage that eventually just, boop, it broke. Okay, so I put a new cable. It works. But then, all of a sudden, a couple of hours later, the internet goes out again. I'm like, what the hell's going on? Now, at this time, I checked. They had an outage, which is not common, okay? I'm like, what the hell? What do you mean they had an outage? They, no, no, no. Actually, some major piece, central piece, failed in your, like, main network room, and we have somebody rushing over there right now to replace it. And I'm like, for the love of God, okay. So after a while, that got fixed. And then I started thinking, I'm like, damn it. all these network glitches, and I just had a cable fail. Okay, I got all these old cables there, and I got this very old gigabit switch.
|
Sam:
[13:12]
| Just replace all of it.
|
Ivan:
[13:13]
| I'm like, fuck this. I'm replacing all of this because it's got to be something here. And, of course, it's very difficult to figure out which one it is. I don't have a cable tester or anything of the sort. And if the problem's determined, that's not going to, I'm not going to find out anyway. And the thing is, while a gigabit switch a long time ago may have been a fortune of money, A little eight-port switch is $30 right now. So I'm like, you know, and the cables and whatever, $100 total.
|
Ivan:
[13:47]
| And I replaced all the cables. And I had like five, six Ethernet cables that needed replacing there plus the switch. So it was about $100. I put everything, replaced all the cables. I did get rid of a whole bunch of, a whole bunch. There were a couple of old cables that were just, what are the things that happens you have a mass of cables at some point you unplug something and there's a cable left there that at the moment that you unplug this is no longer plugged to anything and there were several of them there it's just sitting there because at the moment you unplug that you're like oh my god i gotta untangle all these cables to get this cable out, i'm not gonna do that just leave it it's like you know whatever you know there's a cable there, So I did unearth a number of of of cables that were just sitting there doing nothing. And I tried my best to make it that it wasn't as much of a tangle of cables as it used to be. But I find that that is. Gosh darn near impossible. I mean, unless you have one of these, like, expend all these money. Like, I see these people that I must admit, I get very attracted to doing. But I don't have the time where they have all this place where they have all this ether laid out. And it's all with these little cable guys. And they cut the cables to the exact length. And they're all, like.
|
Sam:
[15:15]
| Beautifully organized. You're actually attracted to that.
|
Ivan:
[15:18]
| Oh my God, I look at this, and I'm like, oh my God, this looks so awesome.
|
Sam:
[15:26]
| My desk is an explosion of cables, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
|
Ivan:
[15:30]
| No, no, no, I want, oh my God. I mean, that, this whole thing, I mean, I'm like looking at this, and I'm like, yes, yes, I see more cables dangling around, yes, yes. And I'm like, I would like that, but no, I don't have the time for this shit right now. Plus, it's just honestly, it's it's just quite a ridiculous investment of money that time and money that I would do for something that nobody ever really sees. OK, because nobody opens that little closet where I have all this ever, except me when something goes wrong. That is the only reason to look at that closet.
|
Sam:
[16:06]
| Right. But I was just holding up all kinds of cables from my desk for Yvonne to see because I have them all out. so that if something comes up and I want to plug one in, I can just plug it in and it's there.
|
Ivan:
[16:18]
| Well, I have a drawer for the spare cables.
|
Sam:
[16:23]
| It's no good being in a drawer. It should be right there, so it's already plugged in when you need it. And I want everything accessible, so if I have to rearrange things, I don't have to go looking for it. It's right there in front of me. Now, I do usually still have to untangle them because they're a massive mess, But like, yeah, yeah.
|
Ivan:
[16:44]
| But look, bottom line, I switched out all the cables and put it all new fresh cables and that glitching stopped.
|
Sam:
[16:53]
| Nice.
|
Ivan:
[16:53]
| So obviously something there had an issue. OK.
|
Sam:
[16:58]
| Well, I don't think your audio quality was that it was clearly you switched.
|
Ivan:
[17:02]
| No, no, no, no, no, no. But I do know the thing is that I think that the reason why part of it is remember how you have those. We had a brief interruption in the call. And when you have those damn interruptions, it also sometimes starts hunting for a different mic. And that's why, because we had an interruption in the fucking call.
|
Sam:
[17:26]
| Maybe, maybe. But didn't you say you also found the cord to the microphone was loose too?
|
Ivan:
[17:31]
| I thought that it was a little bit loose. But I checked. It didn't seem to. I don't really, I, it's, it didn't seem like.
|
Sam:
[17:42]
| Did anybody out there actually notice that Yvonne's sound quality was a little let us know. Let us know. I, my, my, I suspect like.
|
Ivan:
[17:51]
| You know, now you see the thing is that the mess of cables on his desk doesn't bother him at all. But if I am using a little shittier microphone, this drives him insane. And that's my, that's my buddy, Sam. Absolutely.
|
Sam:
[18:04]
| That's exactly right. Well, I was going to say, like, I suspect that most people like if you listen to the people who like talk about the right way to make podcasts, they obsess over their equipment and having the right microphone and using the right microphone technique and all that stuff. I think, and this is a hypothesis on my part, maybe it's only like a subset of podcast listeners, but my hypothesis is that 99.5% of podcast listeners can't tell the difference between really good and okay. Now, if you're actually crappy, if you're actually crappy, that's an entirely different point.
|
Ivan:
[18:47]
| No, I do think that people notice. I mean, I do.
|
Sam:
[18:50]
| And the thing is.
|
Ivan:
[18:51]
| Notice in the way that you're doing out.
|
Sam:
[18:54]
| Notice versus care is a different story.
|
Ivan:
[18:56]
| Right. But I do think that one of the things about the sound quality, it's just one of those components that maybe in the background you don't think about. It reduces friction.
|
Sam:
[19:09]
| Because I'll say this.
|
Ivan:
[19:11]
| Exactly.
|
Sam:
[19:11]
| I definitely, on my random shuffle of millions of podcasts, have had to move on to a different podcast because the audio quality was so bad. Or because like the levels between the two speakers were way off from each other or something like that. And I'm like, okay, it was, it was distracting. It was so bad, but there's a difference between that and okay, it sounds a little off, you know, but I can still understand the person and I don't have to adjust the volume and there's not a whole bunch of background loud noise.
|
Ivan:
[19:47]
| I think those are things that more on a subconscious level make people find whether they're more attracted to the podcast or not. And they don't sometimes even know why they don't like it. Okay.
|
Sam:
[20:01]
| Yeah. Because if you get me up right here by the microphone so that I get the full audio quality. Because normally I'm like a foot and a half away from the microphone. but like if you want to get the the real npr voice you get like one inch from the microphone and you're talking you're.
|
Ivan:
[20:19]
| You're there right.
|
Sam:
[20:20]
| And it it sounds entirely different it sounds better you know the the people who and i i admit it sounds better but when i try to record like this like i'm exhausted i'm well it's not that it's i'm getting cross-eyed because the microphone is like an inch in front of my face i can't see yvonne at the same time i do have to concentrate on, not concentrate, it's actually fairly easy, but make sure that I stay in position and I don't like turn away like that, you know, cause you can tell the difference when you do this, but you know, for a casual thing like this, it seems like it's less real. It's more professional, but it's less real.
|
Ivan:
[20:59]
| Well, the thing is, and I think that that has its place in setting. Okay. You know, it's like, if you're narrating a book, you want that. Okay. Now for this, maybe not.
|
Sam:
[21:12]
| I mean, maybe, maybe I should stay like this for the rest of this podcast and see what people, it's, it's too freaking hard. Okay. No, but, but you're right. If, if I was, let's say instead of a, we're going to talk and bullshit for two hours, i was doing something scripted and episodic where you would expect people where it would be evergreen and people would listen to it over and over and over again then it would be worth doing this it would be worth making sure you were maximizing the audio quality yes and like look if anybody listening to this really really prefers this a lot i'll try harder to do this god this is crazy but but a lot of work but normally i'm just like i put the microphone a little bit away from me and I just talk and it's fine. And we have some post-processing that cleans it up a little bit and it's just fine, whatever, you know, but you can tell the difference. And you can tell the difference when somebody's on their ear pods or on the built-in mic on their computer or from their phone or whatever. It does make a difference. And these are like medium-level microphones. Right, right. The professional folks would get microphones that cost five times as much as the ones we're using. And they would add additional equipment and stuff. And I'm sure it makes a difference, just like me getting closer to the mic.
|
Ivan:
[22:35]
| I'm sure all we'll do is have our AI bots do it for us.
|
Sam:
[22:38]
| Exactly.
|
Ivan:
[22:39]
| Those are so much better. We're not going to even, like, bother to, like.
|
Sam:
[22:43]
| We'll have Yvonne GPT back on paired with Sam GPT.
|
Ivan:
[22:49]
| Yeah. And we'll just talk to each other.
|
Sam:
[22:51]
| We'll just kick back and relax.
|
Ivan:
[22:52]
| And we'll just listen to it afterwards.
|
Sam:
[22:54]
| Well, and one of my potential topics for later was the new Google stuff. You know, maybe we'll talk about it later. But the newest version of their video AI, blah, blah, blah, is absolutely incredible. And it can knock your socks off and be really convincing with two people talking to each other and all this kind of stuff. Anyway, did you have more to say? Or should I do like my movie?
|
Ivan:
[23:20]
| No, you should do your movie.
|
Sam:
[23:21]
| I should do my movie. Okay, so my movie this time is Alice Through the Looking Glass from 2016.
|
Ivan:
[23:29]
| I thought you were going to say Alice in Wonderland. Okay, but it's not.
|
Sam:
[23:33]
| It is not. Well, this is the sequel to Alice in Wonderland from 2010. These are the Johnny Depp versions of these movies.
|
Ivan:
[23:44]
| This is how informed I am about this subject. I had no idea that Johnny Depp was involved in any of these movies. Or at least I didn't remember.
|
Sam:
[23:55]
| Even though you and I talked about the first movie about a year ago.
|
Ivan:
[23:59]
| Maybe. Obviously, I think if I remember correctly, now I'm remembering, and I think I remember that Alice in Wonderland, the first one, and I kind of like remember that Johnny Depp was in there. But if, listen, if you, if you had said, hey, tell me three, before we just talked about this, tell me, tell me an actor, any actor that was in that movie, I would have blanked.
|
Sam:
[24:22]
| Okay, these are, Johnny Depp plays the Mad Hatter, Anne Hathaway plays Alice. You know, there are other famous people, Helena Bonham, anyway, there are other famous people in the stupid movie, too. So, my review, if I remember correctly, of the first one, the Alice in Wonderland one, was a firm, or wait, was that a firm? yeah okay was a firm thumbs down i hated it i thought it was awful um but i watched the sequel anyway a couple years later and i am apparently in the minority here i looked at sort of the the summary of like rotten tomatoes ratings and such i like the second one better than the first one whereas most everybody seems to think that the the first one was okay and the second one was harm, but I kind of liked it the other way around. Now I'm not saying the second one was great. I think I'm going to give it a thumb sideways, but I'm pretty sure I gave the first one a straight up thumbs down. And you and I had the discussion of sort of Johnny Depp movies in general and like how, I don't know about, I think you said you agreed with this, but for me, I've never really vibed with the giant Johnny Depp thing.
|
Ivan:
[25:43]
| Me neither. Yeah, me neither. Listen, my wife liked these damn Johnny, like the Pirates of the Caribbean series thing. Or he was in that, right, Mike?
|
Sam:
[25:54]
| Yeah, he was in that.
|
Ivan:
[25:55]
| And she was like all over those. And I was like, eh.
|
Sam:
[26:00]
| Yeah, and I think the best of the ones I've seen, I've been eh. But for the most part, I've been like, eh. You know? where it's just like not my kind of movie, not my kind of character. It's a little bit too over the top, a little bit too flamboyant. I don't know. And it's just not my thing. And it's fine if it's other people's thing, but it's not mine. But I felt like the Alice Through the Looking Glass sequel. Let me read you some of the comments from reception. Rotten Tomatoes reports that 29% of 260 reviews are positive, and the average rating is 4.5 out of 10. The website's critical consensus reads, Alice Through the Looking Glass is just as visually impressive as its predecessor, but that isn't enough to cover for an underwhelming story that fails to live up to its classic characters. Metacritic, which uses a weighted average, assigns the film a score of 34 out of 100 based on 42 critics, indicating generally unfavorable reviews. However, audiences polled by CinemaScore gave the film an average grade of A- on an A-plus-F scale, the same grade earned by its predecessor, while those at post-track gave it an overall positive score of 79% and a definite recommend of film.
|
Ivan:
[27:26]
| Well, there's a definite divergence between critics and regular people. Yeah.
|
Sam:
[27:32]
| I mean, oh, someone else, Stephen Witte of the New York Daily News called the film hugely expensive and extravagantly stupid. Ty Burr of the Boston Globe said, gaudy, loud, complacent, and vulgar. Stephen Holden of the New York Times said, it's just an excuse on which to hang two trite, overbearing fables and one amusing one. anyway what i felt like was this one i mean it had a bunch of the same stupid stuff but it actually felt to me like it had a little bit more emotional resonance like it actually had a story about how a couple of the characters it had like their backstory and what happened to them as kids and how it ended up being resolved and you know that kind of thing gets to me and it gave it some redeeming value that I think was missing from the first one entirely, where it was all just sort of, let's be silly and do some goofy special effects. Whereas this one seemed to have at least a fig leaf thrown... Well, not... I mean, the plot was stupid, but at least it had some character beats that seemed to matter in some way. I don't know. I'm still only giving it a thumb sideways, but I actually thought it was better than the first.
|
Ivan:
[28:57]
| Okay so you gave it a thumb sideways well yeah okay so it was better than the first one you you went and you watched both yeah i'll give a movie review oh excellent go for a quick one so this week people there was a discussion that i was listening on this podcast talking about robert de niro movies and now he's done a lot of movies and and and how prolific robert de niro has been in doing movies including doing a number of actually quite bad movies because he does so many movies so of course we usually remember all the really good movies but there was a discussion related to one specifically that i always thought got a bad rap but i thought that the movie was was was a lot better and i went i re-watched but especially like i pay attention to the, I think that's...
|
Sam:
[29:49]
| Okay, what was the movie?
|
Ivan:
[29:50]
| The movie is called The Fan. It's from 1996. It stars Wesley Snipes and Robert De Niro. Okay, back when Wesley Snipes was a big, big-time actor before he went to jail and all this stuff. Because in the mid-90s, he was really hot. And did this movie with both of them.
|
Sam:
[30:13]
| Okay.
|
Ivan:
[30:13]
| It was directed by Tony Scott. And Wesley Snipes was a baseball player, and Robert De Niro was a deranged fan of him and his team, the San Francisco Giants. And he was an obsessed fan, and he was so obsessed to the point that at some point during the movie, the team hires this other player to compete for the spot of Wesley Snipes that he has on the team. and he goes to a hotel and kills the guy okay okay and then at the end what happens is that he expected wesley sites to be grateful to him okay and he got really pissed off that he wasn't and he kidnapped his child okay and demanded that in the next game either he hit a home run in the game or he was going to kill his child.
|
Ivan:
[31:13]
| And then he needed to dedicate the whole run to him. So, you know, they're searching for his child. They can't find him. He's playing at this game because he's like, damn it, I need to do this. It's crazy. And they're near the end of the game. It's almost over. And he hits a ball. It started pouring rain. And they thought the game was going to be called because of the rain. And he was, like, scared because this guy's kidnapped his child. And he hits this ball. And he hits it that it doesn't go all the way out. But it's good enough that he could maybe do an inside the park home run. That he could run the bases. Even though the ball didn't go out. They're trying to tag him out. So he goes around the bases. He actually makes it home.
|
Ivan:
[31:58]
| You know, he scores. and all of a sudden the umpire calls him out and he's like what do you mean I'm out and then he starts hearing the arguing and it was Robert De Niro, he had killed the umpire okay and he had put on his uniform and was sitting behind home plate all of a sudden a fight erupts the guy pulls out a knife, he stabs Wesley Stipes stabs a whole bunch of other people and you know yeah sorry for the spoilers if you guys have not seen this movie okay oops a long time okay but Quite a lot of spoilers, but it's 1996. Okay.
|
Sam:
[32:33]
| So, hey, here we are careful even when we give spoilers for movies from the 1920s and 30s.
|
Ivan:
[32:40]
| And so, all of a sudden, he keeps asking where his child is, and he says something that's kind of cryptic, and he doesn't understand what it means. And then he has a knife in his hand, and he's going to attack him with a knife, and then they kill him. and the police were all there because they knew about this and they gunned him down, they killed. They do find his child. He was alive. But it ended like that was the, I mean, this was like pretty much the end where it ends with this, you know, this crazed, deluded fan that had kidnapped this guy's son and basically died in a hail of gunfire because of his obsession with a player. I gave the movie a thumbs up. Most reviewers hated this movie. They said it was terrible.
|
Sam:
[33:33]
| Okay.
|
Ivan:
[33:34]
| A lot of the audiences, it didn't do very well. It got 37% in Rotten Tomatoes. I think a lot of people say it's just dark. It was a dark movie, okay, throughout. And it didn't have a Hollywood ending, okay, in any way. From the way the movie started, it didn't have a Hollywood ending at all. because at some point this guy at the beginning you were trying to feel for him and trying to root for him because he was struggling in his job he's struggling in everything and this is the thing in his life that he's got and and then you know he winds up dead and and this movie got a bad reception it by the way in the 90s we had another movie that was similar to this it was a movie by with oh my god, Called Falling Down.
|
Sam:
[34:19]
| Yes, I watched that and reviewed it a while back. Yes.
|
Ivan:
[34:22]
| Falling Down had Michael Douglas as the star. And that movie also did not have a happy ending in any way. But that movie got a much better reception. And I think it was in that. The movie, I felt that it was in that style. There were certain movies at the time. I think it gets bad reviews. But I think that the movie is not as bad as all the reviewers have made it out to be.
|
Sam:
[34:48]
| Okay.
|
Ivan:
[34:48]
| And so that's my review. I give it a thumbs up.
|
Sam:
[34:52]
| Very good. Okay. So I was at the last minute thinking of a specific thing to use as a break that isn't one of our normal breaks, but I couldn't get it together in time. So we'll do a regular break and then we'll come back with our regular break after thing. Yeah. Yeah, well, are more serious topics, whatever they may be, right?
|
Ivan:
[35:16]
| Sure.
|
Sam:
[35:17]
| Sure. Let's see, which break was I going to do first? This one. One, two, three, four, five. I'm always counting, like, verbally lately, and that's kind of bad, but you know, whatever. Here you go. Here's a break. Something wrong with counting. And we are back. So, Yvonne, what do you want to start with?
|
Ivan:
[36:42]
| Where do we want to start? Okay, well, let me see. I was looking at the subject list, and I topic list, whatever I'm going to call this. Ah, I don't know.
|
Sam:
[36:51]
| We got Biden. We got the DOJ charging the congresswoman. We got more unlawful reditions. We got nuking Gaza.
|
Ivan:
[36:57]
| We got the big.
|
Sam:
[36:58]
| Beautiful bill.
|
Ivan:
[36:59]
| We got AI video. Let's talk about Biden first, okay?
|
Sam:
[37:01]
| Okay.
|
Ivan:
[37:02]
| You know, talk about Biden, because, man, what is the fucking deal? Seriously, what the hell?
|
Sam:
[37:12]
| You mean the amount of attention?
|
Ivan:
[37:14]
| It's not. Let me. There's one thing, the amount of attention they're trying to get on this, because I don't think that outside of cnn and fox that the average american that follows the news is really paying attention that much to this but they have been really it's just really pushing this so hard and it was like and it was a it was a dual thing of cnn pushing it at the same time as fox i i went I don't I don't ever fucking watch Fox. OK. And for some reason, I I happened to skim by Fox the other day. And and in the middle of, you know, Trump doing I can't remember what crazy thing was happening. They're talking about Biden. And I'm like, what the hell? They got, you know, I mean, why is that, Sam?
|
Sam:
[38:15]
| Well, look, here's the thing. First of all, there's this Jake Tapper book.
|
Ivan:
[38:21]
| Well, yeah, this stupid book, yes.
|
Sam:
[38:23]
| So the Jake Tapper book came out. And of course, so Jake Tapper is all over everywhere flogging his book.
|
Ivan:
[38:29]
| Now, here's the thing. I've seen people. Let me tell you something there. I have seen many times people at like CNN, whatever, publish a new book. But literally CNN seems to have turned into QVC for this book. I mean, it was just like, I swear to God, it's like every fucking host, it's like, and, you know, you get your new wind chimes together with your book today as we break with Jake Dapper into every show and every hour and every form and every host. And I'm like, what the fuck? There is all this shit going on. And these assholes are all talking about this fucking book.
|
Sam:
[39:11]
| Yes. So let's let's make sure like we talk. What is the book? The book fundamentally is the supposedly an expose of how many people in what way knew just how diminished Joe Biden was and the conspiracy to cover it up and the effects on the campaign last year and all of this kind of stuff. It seems to be that a lot of it came from sort of people who ended up, a few different sources, one, One was definitely some of Harris's advisors, not Harris's herself as far as I can tell, but some of Harris's advisors who blame their loss on Joe Biden.
|
Ivan:
[39:55]
| On Biden, right.
|
Sam:
[39:56]
| Some of it was just establishment Democrats who wanted Biden out earlier and who wanted that sort of open primary whatever, you know. and and all of this so it's a bunch of people basically trying to pin the loss last year on biden now look there may be some blame for biden but a whole bunch of other people screwed things up too you know and i can't i can't like.
|
Ivan:
[40:29]
| But i can't put this at all okay but but here's the one thing we go back on how we talked about that last year in the election cycle that we had recently every single incumbent like joe biden even with the economy and every even with all the things that joe biden had got got got torched okay i mean and if it wasn't i mean and in canada it would have been this listen even trudeau had to step down but and if but if it wasn't for trump basically attacking Canada, they would have lost two in Canada by a massive margin. And so I just I keep going. But but my whole thing is taking everything about Biden's aging and turning it into he somehow was this useless husk.
|
Ivan:
[41:27]
| Which is what they are trying to portray him as. You know, they took this thing that I was reading about this part about the wheelchair. Which apparently was because, I don't know, something happened to his foot. Whatever, okay? And so, they were thinking about putting him on a wheelchair because he was having difficulty walking. Because something happened to his fucking foot. And I'm like, that's it. That's the whole story. Something happened to his fucking foot. And they thought, oh, my God, because his eights talked about putting him on a wheelchair. And I'm like, I mean, he was literally yesterday walking still through a fucking airport. OK, all right. This week, a few days ago, I'm like, I mean, I don't know. I put my wife in a wheelchair a few months back. OK, she couldn't walk her ankle or whatever. Right. What the fuck? And yes, would advise. Here's the one thing. And it's everything here. My whole thing about this is that when somebody is aging as Joe Biden was and because age had become such an issue, especially because the right had pushed all these narratives of basically like, I don't know, including that, I guess that he was dead and there was a clone or whatever, all the bullshit that they were that they were pushing. Right. That this is where Joe Biden is not running the government. It's this other cabal of people. The one problem that you have, if you're his campaign staff.
|
Ivan:
[42:50]
| Is how do you portray him, you know, as not being old when he's old? And maybe I think that at some point, I think the biggest mistake was that he should have leaned into he's old. You know, you got to, you know, instead of trying to shelter it, you have to lean into he's old. And oh, by the way, you have to lean into the fact that Joe Biden has been a gaffe machine his entire life. And his staffers always protected him about that because he would fucking put his foot in the mouth the entire his entire political career, especially if you put him in open free forums, especially because he suffers from a stutter.
|
Sam:
[43:32]
| Yeah, yeah, yeah.
|
Ivan:
[43:33]
| And all this shit, and all of them have made all these anecdotes about all the difficulties and everything that his staff did to shelter him was how they lied to the American people.
|
Sam:
[43:45]
| Well, yes, and this is a typical example of the cover-up is worse than the crime kind of thing. And look, if they'd been completely open about all this stuff, maybe he would have dropped out months earlier. I don't know. You know, because from the reports that we do have here, and And I think this book is particularly one-sided. But from the reports we have out here, he was significantly diminished. And he probably was more diminished than the public was aware of.
|
Ivan:
[44:12]
| I really, listen, I'm sorry. I don't, listen, diminished in what way? I don't think he was mentally diminished. Okay? And, you know, look, we had Roosevelt that for how long couldn't fucking, he was paralyzed. And we fucking, they hid it from the American public.
|
Sam:
[44:32]
| Aside from the wheelchair thing, the rest of the arguments have been about mentally diminished. Things like him not being able to recognize people or not remembering stuff in certain situations, etc. Now, from everything... Wait, wait, wait. Look, I don't want to relitigate that. The whole point, though, is that I think part of the problem here is that, look, okay, consensus seems to be, and I know you want to argue it again, but he was somewhat diminished.
|
Ivan:
[44:58]
| Oh, no, no.
|
Sam:
[44:59]
| Yeah, and maybe it would have been better if he had decided not to run at all or even dropped out earlier in the process, whatever. But here's the thing. What fucking purpose is re-litigating it again now?
|
Ivan:
[45:15]
| None, none.
|
Sam:
[45:16]
| Like last year when this came up after the first debate and before Kamala Harris, it was all we could fucking talk about for weeks and weeks and weeks.
|
Ivan:
[45:25]
| But here is the fucking thing. And it goes back to how the Democrats suck. in one way. If this was the GOP, What would they have done?
|
Sam:
[45:35]
| They, I mean, well, what are they doing right now? Donald Trump is clearly incapacitated.
|
Ivan:
[45:40]
| Yes. What, that, I mean, these fucking morons, we have an incumbent. He is the, the incumbency is one of the biggest advantages that you can have in a fucking election. What do they do? Undermine it in every way fucking possible. Instead of helping them, they undermine them.
|
Sam:
[46:00]
| Yeah.
|
Ivan:
[46:00]
| At every fucking corner they could.
|
Sam:
[46:01]
| No, I fundamentally believe that what, yes, Biden was very damaged by that debate and his polls were horrible. Like on election graphs, I had him like well under 5% chance of winning in the weeks after that, based on the polling. However, the Democratic reaction to it was worse than the debate itself.
|
Ivan:
[46:27]
| Exactly. That's the problem. And that's my point. It was the fucking reaction.
|
Sam:
[46:33]
| I mean, the Republicans.
|
Ivan:
[46:35]
| Trump had debates where he looked like a complete bumbling lunatic. One of the Republicans afterwards, Trump is great. Trump is awesome. Trump's the best.
|
Sam:
[46:44]
| Well, and in this case, the Republicans could just sit back and say nothing because the Democrats were destroying themselves. You know, and and now I'm not saying the right thing to do would be for the Democrats to have denied there was a problem. But the way that they sort of got in the circular firing squad was not helpful at all.
|
Ivan:
[47:07]
| It wasn't helpful. No, it was not helpful at all. And to undermine them at every turn. And look, but Sam, here's the problem. When no—well, listen, you went into the year with him as your incumbent with a good record, okay? When no primary was there, the only choice that you really had, if you wanted your best shot, was for everybody to fucking fall in line. That was the only realistic, that was your best chance. And when they didn't do that and they, you know, you had your own party undermining.
|
Ivan:
[47:39]
| The guy who is your standard bearer, well, that's not going to help. And I don't think, and I'll tell you this, given the situation I was last year, I don't give a, I don't think, no, I don't think, I'm fairly confident that all the data shows you nobody could have won from the Democrats.
|
Sam:
[47:59]
| Well, I'm going to disagree with that with the same way.
|
Ivan:
[48:01]
| Except maybe on what? Michelle Obama?
|
Sam:
[48:03]
| No, no, no. I'm going to disagree the same way I've said before. Like, in September, Harris was leading. Harris had more than 50% chance of winning in September.
|
Ivan:
[48:12]
| And then she screwed up. Then she screwed up. But by the way, that screw up was her own doing.
|
Sam:
[48:18]
| Yes. Well, and look, and I've heard part of that blame for Biden, too. like in people saying that Biden was insisting on no daylight between his policies and hers. And that was her reason.
|
Ivan:
[48:31]
| But that's not what the issue was. The issue was that basically she went, but that wasn't the real issue.
|
Sam:
[48:37]
| The issue was... Wait, no.
|
Ivan:
[48:41]
| Listen. No, no, no.
|
Sam:
[48:43]
| Let me say this because it's important. You said September inflection. No, no. Yes, September inflection point. But also with an election this close, there is never one singular reason any one of dozens of different things could have gone differently and she would have won.
|
Ivan:
[48:59]
| But listen the strategic shift that they did in the campaign in september is the is the biggest issue that they had and that was only driven by them there was nobody nobody else the campaign went and decided that they shifted away from the from what was working into the narrative of like trump is evil that's it stick with that and.
|
Sam:
[49:18]
| Trying to win over like never Trump Republicans and those.
|
Ivan:
[49:22]
| Kind of folks.
|
Sam:
[49:23]
| And I think that change in emphasis was poison. And I, but you know, the other factors mattered too. But I, but you know, to your nobody could have won again. I think Harris could have won. It was really freaking close. It only would have had like a few things went different in the last month and a half of the campaign. She could have won.
|
Ivan:
[49:44]
| I don't know, man. When you looked at the result and all the fucking states that they won, I think that even that was a fucking mirage.
|
Sam:
[49:51]
| Every single state, every single, yes, she lost all of the close states, but they- All of them! But they were all close! They were all very close.
|
Ivan:
[50:00]
| She lost all of them.
|
Sam:
[50:01]
| Yes.
|
Ivan:
[50:02]
| All of them.
|
Sam:
[50:03]
| But it's because winner take all magnifies the effect.
|
Ivan:
[50:06]
| But listen, here's the thing. Hindsight's 20-20.
|
Sam:
[50:09]
| Yeah.
|
Ivan:
[50:09]
| These assholes are relitigating this thing now.
|
Sam:
[50:12]
| Like, it fucking matters.
|
Ivan:
[50:13]
| And oh, by the way, they're taking the shit on Joe Biden. When I think that Unfortunately, in February of last year, what was going on was what everybody thought was the best course to take.
|
Sam:
[50:27]
| Yes, no, I agree. And look, the thing, this is the key part here. Yes, Jake Tapper put out his book. Yes, he's going to, like, flog it all over the place. But the Democrats don't have to take the fucking bait.
|
Ivan:
[50:40]
| Right. And they're all, like, fucking doing a circular firing squad over the stupid book as well.
|
Sam:
[50:45]
| Again, again.
|
Ivan:
[50:45]
| Just again!
|
Sam:
[50:47]
| And look, all they have to do is, like, one line. The Joe Biden stuff is old history. Let's talk about the future. yes.
|
Ivan:
[50:54]
| Let's talk about donald trump and the bullshit that he's you know.
|
Sam:
[50:57]
| How he's undermining it serves nobody nobody to relitigate what happened last year and again one second it's not like the conversation didn't happen last year like if we if we were finding out now for the very first time like let's say joe biden had gone through the whole election and had lost to donald trump and had never had a bad debate and we were finding out now that oh my god he really had an issue It still wouldn't matter, right? But then I could understand because it would be brand new information. This is not brand new information. We talked for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks about this last year. There's absolutely no benefit in talking about it again now.
|
Ivan:
[51:41]
| Well, once again, this whole damn thing, this discussion.
|
Sam:
[51:44]
| Of course, we're talking about it again now.
|
Ivan:
[51:46]
| Yeah, but this whole discussion is always framed in the most fucked up way. Because we've got a president who is deranged. Okay. And I don't care how bad, listen, I would, I would take Joe Biden right now back in the Oval Office over this psychopath.
|
Sam:
[52:05]
| Oh, absolutely.
|
Ivan:
[52:06]
| Okay.
|
Sam:
[52:07]
| He was on The View last, a couple weeks ago, right before this book came out, in part to preempt it. And he wasn't great. His wife stepped in and helped a few times, but he was fine.
|
Ivan:
[52:19]
| He was fine.
|
Sam:
[52:20]
| And even then, like you said, I would prefer a confused old man with good intentions to a confused old evil man. You know, so and I mean, in both cases, what's really happening is that it's the people around him who determine what's really going on. And I mean, and I'm not saying Joe Biden or Donald Trump don't have an effect on it. But in any presidential administration, it's not really a one man operation. You know, it matters.
|
Ivan:
[52:54]
| Well, until you wake up in the morning and you go on social and you fucking go and say, All right. Okay. Today is the 25% phone tariffs on Apple and 50% tariffs on the EU because they're screwing us.
|
Sam:
[53:13]
| Do you think any single person on his staff knew about that before he posted it?
|
Ivan:
[53:20]
| Listen, I'm still trying to get—I asked. When I asked, I got to follow up on this guy.
|
Sam:
[53:26]
| For insider trading. He probably gave a couple people some heads up.
|
Ivan:
[53:30]
| I gotta find who they, you know, there is this guy called Unusual Whales, okay, all right?
|
Sam:
[53:37]
| Yes, yeah.
|
Ivan:
[53:38]
| That loves to track this information. And my first question today was, because he's been tracking a lot of this shit, okay? And I asked, dude, I mean, seriously, did, were there any...
|
Sam:
[53:55]
| Who was front-running?
|
Ivan:
[53:55]
| Yeah, exactly. Who was making some strange trades, you know, on Apple before this announcement? And so I didn't I haven't seen anything on that, but I got to see if but he's been tracking a lot of a lot of this activity where you've seen just, you know, we just we've seen the trading activity just pops at you. how certain people on a whole bunch of days already have made hundreds of millions of dollars. And it's very clear that they must have known something in advance of the announcement because it was, you know, no activity, very little activity, very little activity. Then you get 1,000 times the normal activity and then the announcement comes out.
|
Sam:
[54:38]
| Right.
|
Ivan:
[54:39]
| That's not a fucking coincidence.
|
Sam:
[54:41]
| Back to Joe Biden for a second. The other thing, aside from everybody relitigating his mental state last year is that he's got a fairly serious cancer.
|
Ivan:
[54:53]
| Oh, yes, that there was also covered up.
|
Sam:
[54:57]
| So, yes, there have been lots of people saying, oh, he must have known this. It's a big cover-up. He must have known this for years. Apparently, the actual situation is that most prostate cancers grow really slowly. Yes. And so, above age 70 or so, the current medical recommendation is don't bother getting tested for it anymore. because even if you have it, something else is going to kill you before the prostate cancer does. And so there's not really much point in looking for it, because even if you find out, the treatment for it's probably worse than what it's going to do for you, what it's going to do to you. The problem is, apparently, there's also a more aggressive form of prostate cancer that is more rare.
|
Sam:
[55:46]
| And Biden, Joe, not Donald, Joe did what the doctors recommended and basically hadn't had the prostate tests since he was 71. And he's like, what, 83, 84 now, something like that? I forget exactly. And so sometime in the meantime, prostate cancer started and it was the more aggressive kind that grows quick, more quickly, spreads more quickly, whatever. And so by the time he was showing symptoms and they caught it, it had already spread and it was already at a very aggressive later stage. There apparently are some treatments. I haven't heard somebody give a straight up good description of his prospects, but this is serious.
|
Ivan:
[56:36]
| I haven't heard anything good.
|
Sam:
[56:38]
| Yeah, it's not the kind of cancer that they're like, we'll treat it, it'll be fine. Like, I had the skin cancer on my nose. They're like, yo, this hardly ever causes a problem for anybody. We remove it and it's done. Okay, I'm crossing my fingers. That's the case for me. But no one was really super worried about it. This is not the kind that nobody is super worried about. This is like, no, this is serious. It has progressed quite a bit. It has spread to the bone. This is a big deal. And so, you know, if if he had won another term, we would probably be freaking out even more about this. But, you know, freaking out.
|
Ivan:
[57:20]
| I'm like, here's the thing. I was never freaking out about this. Well, yeah, because we had a very competent vice president.
|
Sam:
[57:29]
| I mean, this is the whole thing that you and I talked about is, OK, Biden's old. Biden may die. Biden may lose his mental facilities. We have a good vice president. If that happens, if that becomes an issue, he steps down. We get a really great vice president become president. No big fucking deal. A lot of people were freaked out by the idea of a Kamala Harris presidency even before she was the candidate and didn't like that idea. And people, you know, and also I admit it's a hard case to make to the general public that says, look, you're voting for a team, not for a single person. because our politics is so personality driven off the person at the top that half the people voting don't even know who the freaking vice president is. Yeah. Vice presidential candidate is, let alone like the kind of people that are going to pick in their cabinet or whatever, you know?
|
Sam:
[58:30]
| So I don't know, but you know, it would be a, let's just say it would be a bigger news story if it was the sitting president than if it was an ex president. However, people are still talking about it, obviously. And I think putting this right on top of the Jake Tapper book, sort of the Jake Tapper stuff was starting to calm down. And then the cancer diagnosis came out and it just exploded again because it's yet another reason why Joe Biden is old, I guess.
|
Sam:
[59:02]
| And then, of course, you had, like you said, you had the conspiracy theorists coming out immediately in saying, you know, he obviously knew it was a cover-up, you know, the American public was lied to about his health yet again, blah, blah, blah. I don't think that was the case.
|
Ivan:
[59:19]
| Listen, the American public was lied to about his health. Listen, I will say that we have a long history.
|
Sam:
[59:26]
| Of, of, of, of doctors. Of presidents lying about their health?
|
Ivan:
[59:30]
| Yes. Okay. Dating back, you know.
|
Sam:
[59:32]
| I mean, Josiah Bartlett on the West Wing lied about his MS. That's the prototypical example, right?
|
Ivan:
[59:38]
| Yeah. Yeah.
|
Sam:
[59:39]
| And Dave, Dave was dead or whatever.
|
Ivan:
[59:42]
| Dave was dead.
|
Sam:
[59:42]
| Or in a coma. Was he dead or in a coma?
|
Ivan:
[59:44]
| Yeah.
|
Sam:
[59:45]
| It was in a coma. And we had a new president, Dave.
|
Ivan:
[59:48]
| Right.
|
Sam:
[59:48]
| Like.
|
Ivan:
[59:48]
| We had the clone.
|
Sam:
[59:50]
| The clone.
|
Ivan:
[59:51]
| Yeah.
|
Sam:
[59:51]
| Yeah.
|
Ivan:
[59:52]
| And, uh.
|
Sam:
[59:53]
| And of course, we've had real world examples.
|
Ivan:
[59:55]
| I mean, like Reagan. I mean, you know.
|
Sam:
[59:57]
| Look, Reagan apparently had a full-fledged dementia for at least the second half of his second term.
|
Ivan:
[1:00:03]
| No, but after when he was shot.
|
Sam:
[1:00:06]
| Oh, yeah. When he was shot, it wasn't released how serious that was for years.
|
Ivan:
[1:00:10]
| And they never went and passed power to vice president, which they should have because he was severely diminished.
|
Sam:
[1:00:21]
| Yeah. And Casper Weinberger or whatever was not the next in command. whatever it was. And then, but yeah, like he was severely diminished by the gunshot, took him a lot longer to recover than they admitted publicly for years and years after he was president. And from reports that again happened years and years after he left the presidency, he never, got back to the state he was in before the assassination attempt. And again, a pretty obvious dementia in the second half of his second term that has been admitted to by his advisors again years later, but was denied at the time. We also had JFK who had a plethora of health issues that were not made public. We've, you know, other presidents. At FDR, they didn't let people know about the wheelchair. That was a closely guarded secret. We had, I'm going to forget which one, Wilson, who had a stroke and his wife was freaking running the country for the last few months of his presidency. That was Wilson, right?
|
Ivan:
[1:01:28]
| I think that was Woodrow Wilson. Yes, yes.
|
Sam:
[1:01:30]
| I think it was Wilson.
|
Ivan:
[1:01:31]
| I think it's Wilson.
|
Sam:
[1:01:32]
| Yes. Of course, it may have been one of those other presidents around there. And we've had others, you know, of various levels of severity in one form or another that, you know, just were not actually up for the job for significant portions of their presidency.
|
Ivan:
[1:01:50]
| And let's be clear.
|
Sam:
[1:01:51]
| Now, that's not to justify it. That's not to justify it, by the way. Every one of those presidents we listed probably should have disclosed.
|
Ivan:
[1:01:59]
| No, but what I'm saying is that whatever Biden was suffering from was nowhere nearly as bad as most of these that we're talking about. And the reality is that, yeah, I mean, they're going to be coy with the information. And let's be clear, our current president is not exactly forthcoming about his health. And honestly, if he's got a heart attack.
|
Sam:
[1:02:21]
| What do you mean? He's like an NFL linebacker. He's tall. He's big. He's, or no, he's not big. He's got a very athletic build.
|
Ivan:
[1:02:30]
| Very athletic. Very athletic. Very athletic.
|
Sam:
[1:02:34]
| No, I have heard some people off his latest medical report say, actually, he has lost some weight since he was last president and his cholesterol is weighed down. So he has made some improvements. But, you know, yeah, he's not exactly.
|
Ivan:
[1:02:49]
| How do you know any of that is true? I mean, how do you know any of that? Well, I'm sorry. There is no, I do not trust a single number.
|
Sam:
[1:03:00]
| He does look thinner just from looking.
|
Ivan:
[1:03:03]
| He doesn't look into me.
|
Sam:
[1:03:05]
| Okay. Okay. Okay.
|
Ivan:
[1:03:07]
| Well, he's not a hundred pounds down.
|
Sam:
[1:03:09]
| Oh, no, no. He's not like, he's not like Svelte.
|
Ivan:
[1:03:13]
| No.
|
Sam:
[1:03:13]
| But he's not quite as big as he once was, I think. But, but anyway, yeah, but clearly the medical reports they come out are full of bluster and whatever. So you can't, like you said, you can't really trust him.
|
Ivan:
[1:03:27]
| But even, I don't believe any of the numbers on his cholesterol, on his blood pressure, on his, I mean, I don't believe any of the fucking data. None of it. And why would you? When the most basic one is false.
|
Sam:
[1:03:42]
| Well, because they lie, and they lie about everything else. So why would they tell the truth about that?
|
Ivan:
[1:03:47]
| Exactly.
|
Sam:
[1:03:48]
| You know, yeah. Okay.
|
Ivan:
[1:03:51]
| Anyway.
|
Sam:
[1:03:52]
| Do we have anything more to say about Joe Biden? Should he run again in 2028?
|
Ivan:
[1:03:57]
| Yes. And I'll say this. Go fuck yourself, Jake Tapper.
|
Sam:
[1:04:03]
| Oh, Jake Tapper is one of those that there are quite a few of these folks at this point who I just can't deal with because they seem so disingenuous. You know, first of all, there's too much both siderisms where one side is. look i i know it's unfashionable but like i'm sorry in a lot of these things one side is right one side is wrong yeah and and playing even it's like science and playing playing like both sides we have to give equal treatment and equal credence to everything they say no you compare against the actual facts and you see who's lying and jake tapper is one of the biggest both-sider ones He is also very much an opportunist that he sees like, oh, hey, can we make some hay off re-litigating all this Joe Biden stuff again in a book? And by the way, as like Jon Stewart said, if you knew all this, shouldn't he have told us back then?
|
Ivan:
[1:05:05]
| Right!
|
Sam:
[1:05:06]
| You know?
|
Ivan:
[1:05:07]
| Isn't that his job, a fucking reporter? Not to hoard it for a book?
|
Sam:
[1:05:11]
| Now, some of it he may have reported afterwards, after the election and kept it till now. But like, if he knew some of this before, he should have brought it up then. And now, of course, we'd be yelling at him then, too, for like, you know, piling on Joe Biden. But, you know, whatever. But yeah, no. Jake Tapper is just one of them. There's a whole bunch. And I think like the media isn't the media, like there really is a single the media, but I don't know. CNN has been utter garbage in recent years for a long time, really, but it's gotten worse. and they are one of the media organizations that seem to be bending over backwards since the election to, let's be careful not to offend the Trump administration too much because he might go after us. And so...
|
Ivan:
[1:06:04]
| Like I said, it's turned into QVC. Okay, at this point. I mean, basically peddling this fucking book.
|
Sam:
[1:06:10]
| Every single one of their anchors.
|
Ivan:
[1:06:13]
| Ah, none, I guess.
|
Sam:
[1:06:15]
| None?
|
Ivan:
[1:06:16]
| And I'm not going to do a book burning, so I'm not that kind of person.
|
Sam:
[1:06:20]
| Uh yeah okay nothing else on Biden.
|
Ivan:
[1:06:23]
| No oh I I I really I I I hope we can recover yeah from this I know this has got to be very hard I mean for I I I think that Joe probably is more philosophical about this but especially to to his wife and kids um now this has got to be very hard i mean i saw you know i i got pissed off because the thing is at this point you know it's a conversation i was having this week here's the thing and and why this all pisses me off joe biden's a good man he's trying to do the best he could and there's so many people out there especially like talking about our president who was an evil prick and you know all the opportunists and all the other whatever you know what joe biden was just trying to do the best he could even.
|
Sam:
[1:07:13]
| When he screwed up. He was trying. Even when he screwed up. Like, you had confidence that he was doing his best and he had noble intentions and he was trying to serve the public. And sometimes he succeeded, sometimes he didn't.
|
Ivan:
[1:07:27]
| He failed.
|
Sam:
[1:07:27]
| Sometimes I wish he would have made different choices, but you never got the sense that he was doing it for self-serving reasons. Now, look, you don't run for president without some amount of ego and ambition.
|
Ivan:
[1:07:41]
| Agreed. But also, I don't think that anybody else would have quit the campaign when he did.
|
Sam:
[1:07:48]
| I mean, hell, we were on here saying, stick with it, Joe. Tell them to go fuck themselves.
|
Ivan:
[1:07:53]
| Yeah, but nobody else, but like I said, I don't think anybody else would have had the courage to do that.
|
Sam:
[1:07:59]
| Although I will say, by coming out 15 minutes later and endorsing Harris, he did tell Nancy Pelosi and those folks that were pushing it to go fuck themselves.
|
Ivan:
[1:08:09]
| And I was very happy that he did that.
|
Sam:
[1:08:11]
| Because they did not want Harris.
|
Ivan:
[1:08:13]
| No.
|
Sam:
[1:08:14]
| And I don't think anyone else that would have resulted from some sort of open process would have done better than he was.
|
Ivan:
[1:08:19]
| Look, at this point.
|
Sam:
[1:08:20]
| I think Harris was the best.
|
Ivan:
[1:08:20]
| I am very disappointed at that leadership that is... Well, I mean, I know Nancy is not in the leadership position anymore, but she is listened to a lot, and Chuck Schumer and all these fucking clowns, like, right now. I'm very disappointed with them, especially since what started happening last summer. This whole thing where Schumer didn't shut down the fucking... shut down the fucking government. I'm pissed off that Cory Booker fucking voted for Kushner's dad, even if he was gotten it anyway.
|
Sam:
[1:08:55]
| Right.
|
Ivan:
[1:08:56]
| I mean, I'm sorry.
|
Sam:
[1:08:57]
| Well, we've talked about this before, just the Democratic leadership in general is so adverse to the conflict. Like, they could be throwing every parliamentary trick in the book at slowing things down.
|
Ivan:
[1:09:12]
| And they're not.
|
Sam:
[1:09:12]
| They could be trying to have a unified front that says we will vote against every nominee he puts up, no matter what.
|
Ivan:
[1:09:21]
| Yep, 100%.
|
Sam:
[1:09:22]
| Like, even if it's somebody that in a normal universe we would vote for, no, we're going to vote no.
|
Ivan:
[1:09:27]
| Yeah, but voting for Jared Kushner's dad is not, you know, fuck this shit.
|
Sam:
[1:09:32]
| We had Democrats voting for RFK Jr. for fuck's sake. Didn't we? I think we did.
|
Ivan:
[1:09:39]
| I don't remember. I don't remember.
|
Sam:
[1:09:43]
| But all kinds of candidates that you'd think should be unanimous Democrats against. I mean, there's no reason to vote yes for any of them, to be honest. I mean, we do not live in that universe anymore. And all of these Democrats clinging to an old world where you say, oh, the president has the right to nominate whoever they want, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So we will give him deference. No, you do not give deference to this president.
|
Ivan:
[1:10:06]
| No, not one bit. I'm looking through the vote for, no, not a single Democrat voted for K.
|
Sam:
[1:10:13]
| Jr. Okay, well, thank God, at least him.
|
Ivan:
[1:10:14]
| Yeah, no.
|
Sam:
[1:10:15]
| But they have voted for, there have been a handful of Democrats, Booker in this case, Fetterman in some other cases. Well, hell, Rubio got like 99 senators voting for him or some such. You know, no, come on. I know, okay, Rubio's probably the best in terms of normalcy of the Trump nominees, but still.
|
Ivan:
[1:10:40]
| I mean, yeah, that's your gold standard.
|
Sam:
[1:10:44]
| Yeah. okay are we ready for another break okay now i will preface this by saying that i did find the thing i was thinking about before and i recognize i'm risking a copyright violation but i've seen all kinds of videos on youtube and tiktok and everywhere else that have included this in the last week or so so i'm going to include it too and you're gonna go for it i'm gonna risk it I'm going to say fuck it because it's just promotion and these damn people should appreciate it this is from last week's, new episode of Doctor Who it was the Interstellar Song Contest was the name of the episode and it was a riff on Eurovision and things happened and there was sci-fi stuff going on but at one point there was a brief clip of one of the acts.
|
Sam:
[1:11:42]
| And then a couple days after the episode aired they released the full version of the song and it is an earworm and I have not gotten it out of my head for the last week. The Doctor Who official YouTube channel has a live stream that is just this on loop for 24-7 but anyway, here you go here is the full song version from Doctor Who the Interstellar Song.
|
Sam:
[1:12:09]
| Contest episode from last week Dugadoo, Well, there you go. It had a commercial for them at the end. So they got to be happy with that, right?
|
Ivan:
[1:13:59]
| Yeah, they got to be happy about that.
|
Sam:
[1:14:01]
| And like, if you, if you actually go to YouTube, there's a cute little alien singing it and all kinds of like spinny stuff behind them. It's, it's, it's fun.
|
Ivan:
[1:14:11]
| It's lovely. It's amazing.
|
Sam:
[1:14:13]
| I shared it on the curmudgeons corner Slack too. And a couple of different people were like, nope, nope, not, not doing that. So anyway, there it was.
|
Ivan:
[1:14:23]
| There it is.
|
Sam:
[1:14:24]
| So I guess it's my turn. is it my probably it's my turn yeah it's it's it's my turn so i i'm gonna switch gears i mentioned this at the beginning but i i i want to do non-politics for a little bit and talk about that ai video stuff i mentioned because it's it's been a few months since the last time we talked about AI on here. And this week, Google announced their VO3, VO4. I forget which version of VO it was, but I should check. I should check. I should be a good citizen of the world and make sure I know, and I don't, VO, VO, search, VO, VO3, it's VO3.
|
Ivan:
[1:15:14]
| Yeah, VO3.
|
Sam:
[1:15:15]
| VO3. Anyway, this is the latest example. You're seeing the different companies that are doing AI put out new big announcements every couple of months. This latest one from Google, basically they're showing photorealistic movie clips that But just compared to where, like, they are very good. Now, you still have the issue that I talked to Yvonne GPT about a few years. months ago, is it months now? Where like, if you ask it for, you know, an elephant skydiving or something, you know, it's AI because it's an elephant skydiving. It's like, regardless of anything else going on, regardless of like, trying to look for inconsistencies in the video and all that stuff. But these are things where I'm sure there are telltale signs that experts could look at and know immediately that, oh, this is an AI video. And even as a non-expert, in some of these cases, it's like, oh, this is like a little bit too polished for what this is. But basically we're at the point where you can, like somebody was, there've been so many examples over the last few days, but there've been people putting out like fake commercials where they've produced a 30 second fake commercial for like a made up pharmaceutical.
|
Sam:
[1:16:38]
| And they say like this, there was one person who posted i shared on a convergence course slack who says like i've produced these kinds of commercials in real life for real pharmaceutical clients and i charge them five hundred thousand dollars i just put this fake one together for 500 bucks in less than a day and it basically has and look the the basic thing is you can put characters in settings and have them chat it at it now does sound the same time it can do special effects like car crashes and stuff like that but the ones that have been most convincing that I've seen are just like a character talking in front of a background or two characters talking to each other. And they've also, and I've seen not just Google, but a number of their competitors too have added, like one of the old problems was maintaining consistency of characters where like, if you tried to make a whole story, like, And you couldn't have one shot and then another, and the character actually looked like it was the same character because it was sort of starting from scratch each time. Both Google and a bunch of their competitors, I guess that's more than both, but Google and a bunch of their competitors have now essentially solved this by staging it. So you can sort of first create the character, then you save the character, then you put the character in various settings, and you can maintain the consistency of the characters, the settings, the objects they interact with, etc. et cetera.
|
Sam:
[1:18:00]
| And it's just, they are getting super, super convincing. I've seen people also do these with, you know, they're clearly the made up characters where you say, you know, Hey, I want, you know, a brunette girl talking to a tall black man, blah, blah, blah. And it generates that. But they also have ones where they've said they've uploaded like images of a real person and said, put this person in it.
|
Sam:
[1:18:27]
| And those, you can tell it's not, like I saw the latest example of the Will Smith eating spaghetti. Cause we remember there was one of those a couple of years ago that was like surreal. It was so bad. Like you could tell it was supposed to be Will Smith eating spaghetti, but it was like some sort of bizarre animated version of that. The newest version of Will Smith eating spaghetti, you could still tell, you could look at that and be like, That's not, it doesn't quite like, look like Will Smith. Cause you know what Will Smith is supposed to be, but you instantly recognized it as Will Smith. But when it's unknown people, it's getting really hard to tell that it wasn't a random stock actor. You know, it's getting really good and it's getting good fast.
|
Ivan:
[1:19:14]
| Well, I know. I mean, this is one of these advents of technology where, I mean, I don't know what it's going to do to certain things, but, but also on the flip side, the one thing is that, look, you still have to tell it, you still have to come up with a story that's going to, it's like whoever the hell it is. The stupid thing's not going to do that for you. Okay.
|
Sam:
[1:19:34]
| Well, this is the thing that, I mean, I talked to Yvonne GPT about this too. Like all of these sort of fake voice versions of J.D. Vance or Donald Trump doing silly things, like those are sometimes hard because they do silly things in real life. So it's hard to tell where real life ends and parody begins. But when you go too far, it's like, okay, that can't possibly be real. but like if you're right on the edge of like reality those are they're starting to get really damn.
|
Ivan:
[1:20:07]
| Convincing well the thing isn't about listen we've had i mean i feel like we've had computer generated effects that are really good that are difficult for people to ascertain the difference the difference is the ease of doing it yeah exactly this is just dropping the cost of doing that it's not like well right and the difference.
|
Sam:
[1:20:30]
| Is someone can now make a 30 second clip of one of these things for nearly nothing.
|
Ivan:
[1:20:37]
| Yeah yeah but but again it's it doesn't solve the problem of look you're gonna try to sell a product it isn't just hey slap a video together whatever that's like dull as all balls that doesn't engage anybody you still have to come up with some Cause somebody has to come up with what the hell is the.
|
Sam:
[1:20:55]
| Well, right. But, you know, but, but here's the thing. It used to be that you could come up with all the freaking ideas you wanted and you could.
|
Ivan:
[1:21:03]
| You could try them. Now you could try all, Oh, let me try all seven ideas. I can show the videos. I can make them like in a few hours and then we'll try to go with the best one.
|
Sam:
[1:21:13]
| And the difference is like, you know, $500,000 to make a 30 second commercial versus 500. if you are a creative person and can give it those and some of these aren't really even but i mean how creative do you have to be for like you know these random pharmaceutical commercials right but you know you just have to come up with the list of things that'll happen when you take it like you'll lose your left arm and blah blah blah listen.
|
Ivan:
[1:21:39]
| How creative do you have to be listen, They have to be able to grab people and pay attention for a while for them to be able to get the damn message. If you're not getting the fucking response rates that you want from them.
|
Sam:
[1:21:51]
| You know that they suck. But like you said, you can try 50 of them, and if one of them works, you know, you're in business. You don't have to, like, throw all—and again, the ability for this, for fakes of various sorts, I think is, like, if we're not there already, and I think we might be, But by the time we let another six months go by, like, you know, having the ability to like, you know, fake something of the person you hate in high school saying something about your best friend and instigating an issue, you know, is going to be commonplace, you know, or ginning up like something that you're going to try to pass off as evidence in a lawsuit that's completely bullshit. Well, I was thinking with appropriate experts, you can probably tell the difference, but in a lot of lower stakes, less cost stuff, some of this might convince people.
|
Ivan:
[1:22:49]
| I do think that at some point also, like we've had all this AI to create the fake stuff, which is out there. I think at some point there will be a rise also on like the technology to be able to, you know, to sniff out which ones are fake and real.
|
Sam:
[1:23:04]
| Okay because yes there there will definitely be some things for that and a lot of the ai makers are actually inserting watermarks to try to defend against that kind of stuff of course there will also be tools to remove the water right you know so it'll be an arms race like everything else but like in some cases like okay as as with everything one of the first movers and innovators in almost any industry is the porn industry.
|
Ivan:
[1:23:32]
| Porn does.
|
Sam:
[1:23:33]
| And one of the things that has already been out there and is just going to get oh so much better and more realistic is you take your crush, you pass along a few pictures from their social media and say make porn with this character and me and boom, you've got your custom-made porn with the real-life person that you're infatuated with. Now, it's made up. It's AI. It's interpolating. It's trying to figure out what they think they look like and what they think they would do. But it's got their freaking face on it. It's got their general shape. And, you know, that's going to be quite good enough for lots of people.
|
Ivan:
[1:24:18]
| Ew.
|
Sam:
[1:24:19]
| I mean, you can already go out and do this. It's just going to get better and cheaper.
|
Ivan:
[1:24:25]
| No, I know. Oh, and I had heard about this already. I guess I had, like, kind of, like, tried to put it out of. My, my, my head. Fuck, Jesus Christ. I, well, you know, you, you had shared this story about AI and, uh, safeguards related to, to AI and how, you know, which, which AI was it that you were, sorry, was it Anthropic? I think it was that basically, uh, that it was Anthropic's new AI model shows ability to deceive and blackmail.
|
Sam:
[1:24:58]
| By the way, this was on an internal test that they were doing for safety of a model before they added additional protections.
|
Ivan:
[1:25:06]
| Uh they they said what i said you know what i was thinking is what i what i said and i'm not being facetious you know as but i mean it's true it's kind of it's in a sense true that what we need is the uh equivalent right now in ai of tron which is basically out there just you know, doing stopping all these rogue you know programs from fucking with everybody well.
|
Sam:
[1:25:35]
| So let me give a little bit more that that article you met that you listed anthropics new ai model shows ability to deceive and blackmail was by ina freed on axios.com if anyone wants to look it up basically what they did they they just announced this new version claude for opus but in some of the internal testings they they basically they fed it a fake set of emails from its programmers and creators that included things like information about one of the creators having an affair with another one and blah.
|
Ivan:
[1:26:11]
| Blah, blah.
|
Sam:
[1:26:12]
| And then they told the system that they were going to shut it down. And so apparently it reacted by trying to blackmail its creators about, I'm going to release information about the affair kind of stuff. Don't you dare do this. And the model also tried to write viruses to release into the world.
|
Ivan:
[1:26:38]
| Okay. The reason why I mentioned Tron, I don't know if you recall the beginning of the movie, Tron. At the beginning of the movie, Tron, the master control program basically was blackmailing the CEO of the company related to releasing a story that it had about him appropriating programs and stuff and putting it out on the news. So it was exactly this.
|
Sam:
[1:27:05]
| Yes. Well, and I'm sure when they set up the scenario for Anthropic, they'd probably recently watched Tron.
|
Ivan:
[1:27:11]
| Probably.
|
Sam:
[1:27:13]
| But, you know, the point is, these things really are developing super, super quickly. I mean, we talked when these first came out about how deficient they are in a variety of places.
|
Ivan:
[1:27:29]
| Well, they can't do fucking math.
|
Sam:
[1:27:31]
| And they still are deficient in a whole bunch of places. and we talked about how like these things tend to rise asymptotically to where you want them to be but they sort of reach a plateau and that that last 10 percent is a lot harder than the first 90 and the next five percent and then the last one percent is astronomically higher than those earlier versions and all i can say is we haven't hit that slowdown yet no.
|
Ivan:
[1:28:01]
| We were not there yet.
|
Sam:
[1:28:02]
| We may hit that slowdown, but we have not hit it yet. And a lot of these companies are sort of betting on before we hit that plateau, we'll get to the point where these models can design their own successors. assessors. And at that point, that's when like the Kurzweil singularity happens or whatever, where the improvement maintains exponential improvement because it's no longer humans doing it. It's the computers improving themselves, which was also, by the way, what they said happened in Terminator.
|
Ivan:
[1:28:41]
| Correct.
|
Sam:
[1:28:42]
| Although that was supposed to happen several years ago, so I'm sure we're safe now.
|
Ivan:
[1:28:45]
| Yeah, we're fine.
|
Sam:
[1:28:48]
| You know, and they talk about all these, you know, protections and guardrails and things like that. But, you know, it's human beings are stupid and we only have to see the fact that those fucking tariff structures were almost assuredly developed by AI to see how these things can infect the real world. Where, you know, they, and you'd think, oh, well, a human using the AI will double check it. They will make sure that it makes sense, blah, blah, blah. No, no. Some humans will double check and make sure it makes sense. Other humans will be like, well, there you go. We've had multiple cases.
|
Ivan:
[1:29:30]
| There was a survey that recently came out where, you know, they were talking about how younger users versus older users use ChatGPT. And they were saying that older users, 30 and above, used it kind of like Google. Okay?
|
Sam:
[1:29:48]
| Yeah.
|
Ivan:
[1:29:49]
| And so they would look at it and they would look at the answers and they would try to check the accuracy of what they got and so forth. But under 30, the people basically, whatever it said, they took it as gospel and how they were using it specifically, not for input on life decisions, but whatever it was given as feedback in many cases. Oh, okay. Well, that's what we'll do.
|
Sam:
[1:30:14]
| Including on all kinds of stuff, right? I mean, like we've got people cheating for essays in college, but we've also got people saying, hey, my girlfriend said this at our date today.
|
Ivan:
[1:30:25]
| Yes.
|
Sam:
[1:30:25]
| Should I dump her? And if it says yes, they dump her.
|
Ivan:
[1:30:28]
| Yes.
|
Sam:
[1:30:30]
| Well, and on the essays, another thing I've heard, by the way, is like, you know, on the one hand, some schools are very much battling the AI and putting through AI detectors that aren't very good anyway. Like, you know, the accuracy level is not great, but like people who use their essays in those kinds of environments, they're not taking the idea from the AI and then rewriting it in their own words or anything like that. They're taking the idea from the AI and taking it to another AI that's designed to humanize AI text. And then taking the results of that second AI and submitting that instead. Yeah, things like that. Now, there are other schools who are just like, fuck it, this is a losing battle. We're just going to lean into AI and teach people how to use it properly. I think that's actually the better approach because you can't stick this genie back in the bottle.
|
Ivan:
[1:31:24]
| Well, I don't mind. I mean, like every tool, I don't mind about learning how to teach people how to use it in the best way possible. But also at the same time, I'm trying to get people to learn some shit. So whatever it is that you're going to use to find out what they're learning, it can't be by doing that, basically. You have to, I mean, I have, you know, I may be an outlier on this, but I always had a thing for like proctored, monitored, you know, multiple choice exams.
|
Sam:
[1:31:56]
| You have to, or if it is an essay, you have to handwrite it in front of them.
|
Ivan:
[1:32:01]
| Correct.
|
Sam:
[1:32:01]
| With a pencil and pen or whatever.
|
Ivan:
[1:32:03]
| Right. Okay. And those are kind of unfair a little bit because it's very difficult to edit those. Those are incredibly difficult for me. But if you're going to do it, then you do it in an enclosed environment where you don't have access to those things. It's, you know what? A, you need to write this essay. You're going to have X number of hours on this sandbox. You don't have access to the other tools. This is what they get in order to get that result from you. Or B, I go and I'm sure I'll let you use all the tools, AI or whatever, but whatever the hell, well, whatever the hell is going to be a component. This on your grade is low because I know that you maybe possibly didn't actually know.
|
Sam:
[1:32:43]
| Have any don't know.
|
Ivan:
[1:32:45]
| Anything of what this fucking document says.
|
Sam:
[1:32:47]
| The other thing that we have to be careful of is like tools like this allow people to bootstrap so you don't actually want to over index on skills that can now be automated that we thought were important before so like just like today you know it's not important to teach the kids cursive they are not going to need that fair you know there are other skills now that you know 10 20 30 years ago two years ago only a human could effectively do but now you can have the machine do it so you shouldn't be grading the people on can you do this thing that the machine can do because since the machine can do it they can now rely on the machine for that and do the things the machine still can't.
|
Ivan:
[1:33:32]
| I think the one problem is that there has to be a balance because i i think that as much as this is happening at certain levels of technology it's like and and certain levels of the economy in certain areas the reality is that a lot of the things that we do still aren't you can't use this for those okay all right in many many things in the real world okay you know and i'm like and what am i talking about i'm talking about more basic shit okay we're related to problem solving and troubleshooting in terms of in real life when you're out on the street okay all right there you know you could not rely on on ai for everything and i i think that what we're doing is to a certain extent is diminishing the problem solving skills of people in general okay um.
|
Sam:
[1:34:24]
| Well you know just just an example of that without even getting to the ai stuff people have taken people who've grown up with GPS navigation and tried to have them get around without it, And they are completely dumbfounded, have no idea what to do. Now, I'm completely reliant on GPS, have been for years. I use it when I'm driving three blocks. But, you know, it's like, you know, a map is archaic technology, like an actual paper map, right? And even like navigating by like my, what's right, landmarks. like you know oh go go four blocks and turn left at the dairy queen like that's confusing as hell to people i mean it would be confusing to me too honestly because i'm expecting my device to tell me when to turn you know right before i get there turn left and a thousand feet and i have a little moving map that tells me when but like this is the question is how much do you want to index how you teach people and what you teach people based on, okay, if suddenly the last 30 years of technology goes away, would you be able to survive?
|
Ivan:
[1:35:42]
| Well, it's not even like the last 30 years of technology. Here's a reality, for example. There are certain places, and I think this is a reason why we get more people lost in the woods or in certain places that spend all of a sudden, And, oh, this person was lost in Sierra Nevada. There was a recent one. Three weeks, they couldn't find him or whatever. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure that a big part of this is that people have no fucking idea how to navigate in places where there is just no satellite navigation or signal. Your device ran out of battery and you just can't problem solve that problem. And I'm like, there are just sometimes like life problems. problems that, you know, AI isn't going to tell you how to do every single fucking thing in your day. Not yet. Not anytime soon. I don't think that in the near future, maybe in the later future, but I just see people like being...
|
Sam:
[1:36:43]
| But come on, Yvonne, you know the next time you have an argument with your wife, you know you're going to have chat GPT.
|
Ivan:
[1:36:49]
| Oh, I'm going to go back to the... And yes, of course.
|
Sam:
[1:36:51]
| And do whatever it says.
|
Ivan:
[1:36:52]
| Do whatever it says.
|
Sam:
[1:36:54]
| Exactly.
|
Ivan:
[1:36:55]
| So, you know, you're seeing me at divorce court all of a sudden, you know, giving ChatGPT, you know.
|
Sam:
[1:37:02]
| And then you will use ChatGPT as your lawyer and it will make up cases like it does sometimes. Or books. Or books.
|
Ivan:
[1:37:11]
| Or books, because that was the thing, book recommendations. I was talking about.
|
Sam:
[1:37:15]
| For folks who didn't hear, there were a couple major newspapers last week who published like a summer reading guide. And it turns out the books were all completely made up. The freelancer they hired to do it just asked one of the AIs to do it. It apparently used real authors, but made up books that don't exist for each author as your recommended summer reading.
|
Ivan:
[1:37:39]
| Excellent.
|
Sam:
[1:37:40]
| And then, of course, readers started noticing because they went, oh, okay, I'll get these books. And then they couldn't find the books because they don't exist. And so they started complaining. Because nobody checked. Nobody checked.
|
Ivan:
[1:37:57]
| I mean, I don't know.
|
Sam:
[1:38:01]
| Of course, next, the AI will say, oh, those books don't exist? No problem. I'll write them for you.
|
Ivan:
[1:38:07]
| Right. We'll make up the book right on the spot. oh fuck, so I don't know I continuously see people right now baffled by very simple problems on a regular basis things that in the past wouldn't stump others that they're just like baffle like a lot of younger folks and I'm just like have.
|
Sam:
[1:38:35]
| You seen these in real life just to make.
|
Ivan:
[1:38:37]
| Sure because there's a whole genre online.
|
Sam:
[1:38:40]
| Of people intentionally doing stupid things because it gets the clicks.
|
Ivan:
[1:38:44]
| No no no no no i'm talking about real life okay i'm talking about i'm totally talking about real life i'm talking about co-workers people i'm bumping into i'm just like what the hell what the hell you mean you don't know how to like like i mentioned or like references i don't know like i made a reference this week to don quixote on a on a call and somebody went and asked me Who's that?
|
Sam:
[1:39:09]
| Uh-huh. Well, who has to know that? Come on.
|
Ivan:
[1:39:14]
| I guess.
|
Sam:
[1:39:16]
| Well, and there is a difference too. That kind of thing is like what remains culturally relevant, what doesn't. But I think that ties also to education in general. And here comes our tangent. But education in general has gotten much more focused on what's the training that potentially gets you a job later, as opposed to sort of basic cultural and civic knowledge that's important to have a good society.
|
Ivan:
[1:39:46]
| But I think that is part of it. But I don't, you know, if that was the case, right, we wouldn't have problems getting mechanics.
|
Sam:
[1:39:59]
| Well, there's also, but it's also indexed on the wrong things, right? Like people have been like, you must go to college, which is now super, super expensive. And we're going to train you for this expensive career. And plumbers are looked down upon. Electricians are looked down upon. And so, yes, we've emphasized the wrong things. And meanwhile, you've got people getting the expensive college degrees and coming out into a job market that sucks and they can't get jobs either. And meanwhile, we have a shortage of plumbers and teachers and, you know, all these other jobs.
|
Ivan:
[1:40:34]
| And i i guess that's the thing i i just i i i'm frustrated by and this is part of the problem that we'll go back on this war on science war on education war on everything and and this whole thing with trump and the should we go into the further tangent with trump trying to bring iphone manufacturing to the u.s with this stupid 25 tariff that he says and that he said it would apply to any of the smartphones.
|
Sam:
[1:41:04]
| Yes the.
|
Ivan:
[1:41:06]
| Reality is nobody wants to fucking do those jobs we already talked about i know we talked about this last week nobody wants to do this.
|
Sam:
[1:41:12]
| Or if they are going to do it they're going to want a lot of pay right and a lot of benefits and right probably shorter hours and all kinds of things like you're certainly not going to get you know the equivalent of whatever's happening in china india or you know other countries now as you talked about last week people do not fully understand that those they're not exactly getting slave labor wages either given the cost of living where they are now but you know americans would certainly demand more oh yeah americans.
|
Ivan:
[1:41:47]
| Would demand more because the cost of living is higher i mean there's no doubt about that so i'm but i'm just like i i i don't know i mean, I find it that when we were younger, I guess this is the one thing, right? Look, I'm somebody that...
|
Sam:
[1:42:00]
| We're going to be really curmudgeony now.
|
Ivan:
[1:42:01]
| I mean, I assembled a computer. Okay, all right. Did you ever assemble one?
|
Sam:
[1:42:07]
| No, I don't think I ever did. Not a from scratch computer. Like, I always bought, like, full pre-made units.
|
Ivan:
[1:42:16]
| Did you upgrade any of them? Make changes? Swap out a hard drive? Something like that?
|
Sam:
[1:42:22]
| I'm pretty sure I have, yes. i mean back in the day where that was relatively easy you open it.
|
Ivan:
[1:42:28]
| In yeah you open it up you stuck a new yeah you know you would stick a card you would do all these things you would you'd put together all this stuff you kind of like had an understanding of yes more of an understanding of the parts that made it the system and how at least at a high level right i'm not at least yes yeah yeah i'm not making the damn circuit board but i had an idea of like there's a power supply There's a hard drive. There's the RAM. There's the CPU. You know, there's the I.O. controller. There's, you know, the drive.
|
Sam:
[1:42:58]
| I've certainly changed memory cards.
|
Ivan:
[1:43:01]
| Oh, there you go. Well, that's good.
|
Sam:
[1:43:03]
| It's a really high-tech operation there. Well, nowadays, like, they're soldered into motherboard most of the time.
|
Ivan:
[1:43:09]
| I'm sorry. Let me tell you something. Well, yeah, they're soldered, but, you know, yeah.
|
Sam:
[1:43:12]
| Whatever the right term is, it's probably not actually solder anymore.
|
Ivan:
[1:43:17]
| They're all, like, just built in a certain way. Yeah, they're all built in. I get that. But I see people with, you know, you give them a box of tools and a couple of things to solve. And, well, I know you've never been able to do that. Okay. So, okay.
|
Sam:
[1:43:33]
| All right.
|
Ivan:
[1:43:33]
| Fair.
|
Sam:
[1:43:34]
| Fix things with tools?
|
Ivan:
[1:43:35]
| Yes.
|
Sam:
[1:43:37]
| I've been able to break things with tools.
|
Ivan:
[1:43:39]
| Yes. That you've been good at. But the number of people that can take some tools and actually fix something. It's gone down a lot in society in general.
|
Sam:
[1:43:51]
| Well, and part of that, though, just to be fair about that, the things we use about us every day are more complicated and more complex than they used to be.
|
Ivan:
[1:44:00]
| But some remain the same.
|
Sam:
[1:44:01]
| They're not made for self-repair.
|
Ivan:
[1:44:04]
| Look, an electrical fixture is an electrical fixture is an electrical fixture.
|
Sam:
[1:44:08]
| I can change a light bulb. I have changed a light bulb.
|
Ivan:
[1:44:12]
| Good job.
|
Sam:
[1:44:13]
| Now, I've sometimes waited many months to change the light bulb, but I have changed the light bulb.
|
Ivan:
[1:44:18]
| I will advise you that this morning at around 7.40 a.m., one of our smoke detectors started beeping. By 8.20 a.m., I checked because I did log this to remember to tell you, by 8.20 a.m., the battery had been replaced.
|
Sam:
[1:44:38]
| Whereas I am well-known, I think our noise-canceling post-processing eliminates them now, but I've been well-known to have a beep on this podcast from a smoke detector battery for.
|
Ivan:
[1:44:48]
| Like, years on end. For years!
|
Sam:
[1:44:51]
| Now, it's not always the same smoke detector. But, like, by the time I fix one, there's another one going on.
|
Ivan:
[1:44:58]
| The other one is beeping.
|
Sam:
[1:45:00]
| Yeah.
|
Ivan:
[1:45:01]
| And I will say that, by the way, the person that I, further, I, listen, I, I didn't, I wasn't even the one that went and took down the smoke detector. Okay. My wife did because I went and I'm like, it happened at seven 40. It was right around. It was getting ready to make breakfast and make my new lunchbox. And I said, look, I got to do this. I can't deal with this right now. I got, I got to take care of this first. And while I was about to go to the bathroom My wife goes and shows up to me Here, I took it down, Now, my wife could not figure out how to take out the battery, okay? But she had taken it down from the ceiling, okay?
|
Sam:
[1:45:40]
| Okay, yeah.
|
Ivan:
[1:45:41]
| That's a big advance, okay? And so I'm like, okay, you know, and I had spare batteries, so I put in the battery and I went, and after I finished with the breakfast and whatever, I put it back up on the ceiling. And so it did not, it lasted a total of 40 minutes.
|
Sam:
[1:45:58]
| What I was saying, though, is like a lot of technology that when we were kids, so we're talking like 40 years ago, was relative. Well, when we were kids, 40 years ago would be like 13. Okay, fine. We're teenagers. Okay, fine. A little bit more. But when we were younger, there was lots and lots of technology that was designed in a way that was fairly simple, fairly straightforward. You could take it apart with a regular screwdriver. You could put it back together.
|
Ivan:
[1:46:32]
| Yeah, yeah.
|
Sam:
[1:46:33]
| You could replace a part. Most things these days are designed not to be repairable, aren't affordably repairable either. like i mean back in like back in the day if you had a problem with your tv you might actually take it into a tv repair shop.
|
Ivan:
[1:46:54]
| Very true that was very often yes.
|
Sam:
[1:46:57]
| Right now a.
|
Ivan:
[1:46:58]
| Tv dies or it's done.
|
Sam:
[1:46:59]
| Yeah a tv dies you throw it in the trash or recycle it if you're feeling generous and and then you buy a new one because there's just no practical way to repair these in a way that's meaningful or economic.
|
Ivan:
[1:47:13]
| And that's true of more and more things. We do have a lot of stuff that does last, a number of things that do last longer. But back into how the hell this fucking, listen, this whole thing is just making people dumber.
|
Sam:
[1:47:32]
| I don't know.
|
Ivan:
[1:47:33]
| That's just a fucking reality.
|
Sam:
[1:47:34]
| I still have optimism that it will instead provide tools for people to do new things that weren't even within the realm of possibility until you could have AI do all these foundational things for you. That's the optimistic view.
|
Ivan:
[1:47:52]
| Or it could be like Wall-E where everybody is just like lounging around on the chairs and just playing virtual golf every day and sucking down like whatever, you know.
|
Sam:
[1:48:02]
| So I, yes, yes, that, that is possible. But I mean, I mean, I, I am, I am doing a number of different personal projects right now, none of which have borne fruit yet, but which I would not even, even attempt it without AI assistance, to be honest.
|
Ivan:
[1:48:20]
| Now that's, that's, you know.
|
Sam:
[1:48:22]
| So maybe some of those will work out and be, end up being something interesting. Maybe they won't.
|
Ivan:
[1:48:29]
| I mean, that is one thing, you know, that I consider because I do understand that, you know, for certain things, it definitely is enabling it. And like you talked about video before. Hey, you need it. You want it to do 10 takes on something would cost you half a million dollars. And then all of a sudden you're like, wait, I can do 10. I can do 10 samples of what the hell I want this to look like. And I can, I can, I can look at him right now and not have to wait three, you know, three months. Yeah.
|
Sam:
[1:48:55]
| And look, there are a lot of people protesting and you can see the creative industries panicking in real time because I guarantee you, someone will do a high quality, fully AI generated movie in terms of the visuals and audio with only sort of the script and instructions being given by a human being within a year. and that will actually be decent, maybe two years, but it's getting really damn close. You will have shorts that are good before then.
|
Sam:
[1:49:27]
| And, you know, there's where, you know, look, on the one hand, it's like, yeah, you're, you are replacing creative professionals. And there is a, a certain sense of lack of humanity here. But like you said before, you still need to have, well for now you still need to have the creative person giving the instructions of what do you want this we're gonna come up with the idea come up with the idea well but i you know we're right now if you tell an ai give me a plot for a movie it's gonna suck you know they may give a high level version that's sort of like whatever but if you start trying to get it to give a script a full script. I mean, we've seen these. We've seen things where they've told AIs, generate a script for a sitcom episode or whatever. You remember there was that channel that eventually got shut down that was like 24-7 Seinfeld, which just took the characters from Seinfeld.
|
Sam:
[1:50:27]
| Like programmed it on like the entire corpus of scripts from Seinfeld and just said, do that forever. Just have the characters in a room talking in a Seinfeld style. And, you know, it was entertaining for a few minutes, but if you watch it for a couple hours, you'd start to want to like really hurt yourself.
|
Sam:
[1:50:48]
| You know, but the, but they are getting better rapid. Like, so I would not be surprised if we have a fully start to finish, like, yo, producer goes in and tells some AI, give me a two hour blockbuster movie hit return and that's all they say and it spits out something that goes and makes a hundred million dollars you know we're probably a few years from that but i we will see i i i'm i am sure we will see that in our lifetimes unless it's shut down by the by the creative unions, or various other legal things. Like one of the other legal minefields that people are in are because this AI is trained on all kinds of stuff that they may not have had permission for and aren't providing compensation for. There's a question of if you did that and did an AI-generated movie, is it copyrightable? If so, who owns the copyright? And if so- That is a big problem. Or are people who's like, if there are influences in that movie that clearly come from some source, can they sue you and get part of the money? There's a legal minefield here that has not been fleshed out yet.
|
Ivan:
[1:52:07]
| And that, I think, is one of the biggest ones, because I think the biggest problem that a lot of the AI companies have got themselves into is related to this fact that they went and they decided to not pay for a lot of the content that they fed into these models.
|
Sam:
[1:52:25]
| And they've explicitly said that if they had to pay for this content, then the economics of all this falls apart instantly.
|
Ivan:
[1:52:33]
| But that's the problem. But OK, but then, you know, you're just you're taking everybody else's content for free and then then using it and abusing it. And, you know, you unfortunately, yes, it may be that at some point a lot of this.
|
Sam:
[1:52:49]
| Well, the argument is, and I'm not sure I 100% buy this, but I'm going to state the argument, is that this is no different than human beings who go out and watch movies and are inspired by them and use them for their own creative pursuits. They are not regurgitating what was their training data exactly as is. They are producing a new work that remixes them.
|
Ivan:
[1:53:12]
| Hey, when I went to watch that movie, I paid to see that movie. Okay? I probably bought that book and I paid to see that movie. Okay? They didn't even do that.
|
Sam:
[1:53:23]
| Okay? Well, they scraped stuff that was available on the internet for free.
|
Ivan:
[1:53:27]
| Yeah. So I just, you know, that is a big minefield for this entire thing. But anyway, all right.
|
Sam:
[1:53:38]
| We are done.
|
Ivan:
[1:53:39]
| We're done.
|
Sam:
[1:53:40]
| We're done. Thank you, everybody.
|
Ivan:
[1:53:42]
| Oh, before I forget, one final thing.
|
Sam:
[1:53:44]
| Yes.
|
Ivan:
[1:53:45]
| I don't want to forget to say this this week. Fuck you, Donald Trump.
|
Sam:
[1:53:52]
| Okay. You have said it.
|
Ivan:
[1:53:54]
| I'm going to get that off my chest.
|
Sam:
[1:53:55]
| And alex wants me to make sure not to forget that one of the things that i'm working on that i would not have even attempted without ai assistance is abel fnaf the game he's had me working on for a while now the part i'm working on right now i i'm happy with the game itself i'm working on a score server so i can put the game online but have everybody feed into the same high score list who plays it online that's what i'm working on now okay but anyway and i'm working on a bunch of other projects too what oh and he i'm i'm not gonna read all this it's too long we're we're over time and i'm closing up anyway go to curmudgeon-corner.com you can see all our stuff all the ways to contact us our archives our transcripts all that lovely stuff You can go to our Patreon where you can give us money, like money, at various levels. We will send you a postcard. We will mention you on the show. We will read you a story. We will send you a mug. Did I say that already? We'll do all kinds of things at different monetary levels. I mean, the higher the price goes, the more we'll do for you.
|
Ivan:
[1:55:11]
| I bet that what you'll get from us is more than the people at the Donald Trump meme coin dinner got.
|
Sam:
[1:55:19]
| There you go. Exactly. Anyway, at $2 a month or more, or if you would just ask us, we will invite you to the Curmudgeon's Corner Slack, where Yvonne and I and a bunch of our listeners are chatting throughout the week. Todd, who was on last week, has joined the Curmudgeon's Corner Slack, although I think he's only been on like once so far. But, you know, that's fine. And, yeah, so, Yvonne, what is something from the Curmudgeon's Corner Slack that, if you tell them about it, will leave them salivating and wanting desperately to join our Slack so they would not have missed that on?
|
Ivan:
[1:55:52]
| Well, as I previewed, at Trump's $148 million meme coin dinner, the food sucked and the security was lax. This is from CNBC. The price of Donald Trump's meme coin plunged 16% hours after a president hosted a black tie gala at his Virginia Golf Club for its biggest buyers. Among the 220 attendees were crypto influencers, industry executives like Sandy Carter of Unstoppable Domains. and former NBA star Lamar Odom. Let's talk about has-beens. Trump delivered a brief address, rehashing old crypto talking points, then left on a helicopter before taking any questions or pictures with his meme coin contest winners. I mean, isn't that great?
|
Ivan:
[1:56:43]
| The quote was better. Here we go. The top 25 wallets were promised a private reception and guided tour. Others, like 25-year-old Nicholas Pinto, whose dad drove him to the event in his Lamborghini, left them underwhelmed and still hungry. The food sucked, Pinto said. Wasn't given any drinks other than water and Trump's wine. I don't drink, so I had water. My glasses only filled once. Trump made only a brief appearance. He didn't talk to any of the 220 guests. Maybe the top 25, Pinto said. All in. The president was there for 23 minutes, Pinto said. so yeah wow look a whole bunch of people that got already screwed by trump travel all the way to his golf club to get screwed again.
|
Sam:
[1:57:33]
| Beautiful i mean and look this is just one of the many vehicles to bribe donald trump oh vehicle like of course the plane which was officially received this week as well oh and he told the president of south africa that if he had a plane to give him, he'd be happy to take that too.
|
Ivan:
[1:57:51]
| Well, I think that the whole thing started so, the best line ever is like, I'm sorry, I don't have a plane to give you.
|
Sam:
[1:57:59]
| Yes, because Donald Trump was going off on the poor guy and bringing up all kinds of white nationalist racist conspiracy stuff about white genocide in South Africa. Which is all fake, not true. It turns out a picture he showed was from a different country entirely it wasn't even south africa etc etc and he was putting up with all that and so the president was like i'm sorry i don't have a plane to give you and donald trump responded with if you did have a plane that would be great essentially you know.
|
Ivan:
[1:58:32]
| How many fucking days left of this.
|
Sam:
[1:58:34]
| A lot just do we i'm sure i can find a count let's do this, days left in trump administration counter let's see days until trump is out of office 1337 elite it's elite 1337 days 12 hours 38 minutes and 30 seconds jesus.
|
Ivan:
[1:59:03]
| Christ 1337 still.
|
Sam:
[1:59:06]
| Yes. 1337.
|
Ivan:
[1:59:08]
| Oh my God. This is really exhausting.
|
Sam:
[1:59:11]
| Well, that assumes of course that he serves out a full term. Otherwise, we may have J.D. Vance for part of that.
|
Ivan:
[1:59:18]
| God, you know what? I hate J.D. Vance, but I'm pretty sure he's not going to wake up every morning announcing new tariffs.
|
Sam:
[1:59:30]
| And changing the tariffs from yesterday to something different because he feels different. Or saying that we're seeing an overnight movie of Escape to Alcatraz and waking up in the morning and saying we're going to real— Or Alcatraz.
|
Ivan:
[1:59:44]
| Yes. At least we'll be spared those things.
|
Sam:
[1:59:47]
| Yes. There'd be other evils.
|
Ivan:
[1:59:50]
| Right. But just not that constant fucking pounding from this guy. Every fucking morning.
|
Sam:
[1:59:56]
| Of nonsense.
|
Ivan:
[1:59:57]
| He's looking at the news. And you're like looking at like, oh, fuck. What now? Can he shut up?
|
Sam:
[2:00:03]
| Okay. Yeah. Okay. We are out of here. Here comes the outro. Goodbye, folks.
|
Ivan:
[2:00:10]
| Bye. Bye-bye.
|
Sam:
[2:00:41]
| Thank you. And with that, I'm hitting a stop. See you later, Yvonne.
|
Ivan:
[2:00:45]
| Stoop.
| |
|
